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[Intro Music: There Is A Dark Place by Tom Rosenthal]. Jordan (00:27): Hi, my name's Jordan. Lex (00:28): And I’m Lex. Jordan (00:29): And this is, Or, Learn Parkour Lex (00:31): A podcast about ADHD done by people who have ADHD. Jordan (00:34): We really, really have ADHD. Lex (00:37): We super have that brain worm ADHD. Jordan (00:39): It's all up in there. Lex (00:41): All up in those brains. Jordan (00:43): Our brains specifically, which is why we're doing this podcast. Lex (00:45): Yes. Uh, thanks so much for joining us for this third episode of- Jordan (00:50): Woo! We made three. Lex (00:52): We did. We made it to three. Jordan (00:53): It’s a prime number. Lex (00:54): Yeah. Yes it is. Thank you. Thank you for that. Jordan (00:57): That's auspicious, right? Lex (00:58): I mean, three is commonly seen as a lucky number in many cultures, so yeah. Jordan (01:02): Episode 3! Lex (01:03): Yeah. So we made it to episode three and that's the main point here is that we made it to episode three. You're still here somehow. So that's on you, but, uh, yeah. Thanks so much, y'all. The last episode we shared a little bit about our own ADHD journeys and listening back I think we both noticed that our stories were- specifically mine, I'm not going to call out Jordan on this one- but uh specifically my story's a little all over the place. So thank you for sticking with that. And you know, if nothing else, at least it's on brand, at least it tracks with this podcast. Am I right? Jordan (01:32): Yeah I don't know what else y'all expected subscribing to this. We'll get there eventually. That is our promise to you. Lex (01:39): Yes. Jordan (01:39): We will get there eventually.. Lex (01:41): Yes. And we have been learning all new sorts of fun tricks on audacity. Jordan (01:46): I've just been watching YouTube tutorials. I need to eat something at some point, but I haven't. I've just been on YouTube. Lex (01:53): Now. She is not Jordan. She is Jaw-dacity. Jordan (01:55): Jordacity. I kind of like that, actually. Lex (01:58): Jordacity? Jordan (01:58): I feel like if I had a personal brand, like a content brand where I also maybe like sold shoes and or kitchen appliances, it would be Jordacity. Like you could go buy a Jordacity toaster oven. It'd be sleek as hell. Lex (02:12): Cool. Cool, cool. But consider, with Jaw-dacity, you could have sharks in your logo. Jordan (02:16): Oh, that's a good point. Lex (02:18): Yeah. Or just teeth... Both (02:20): (chanting) Teeth, teeth, teeth, teeth, teeth. Lex (02:23): Okay. Yeah. So. Jordan (02:25): What are we going to talk about this week? Lex (02:26): Today we are talking about the medical history of ADHD. Jordan (02:32): Like many other history of mental issues, it's a little bit terrifying when you consider that the best and most successful things that have happened have been giving children speed. That's like the high point. It kind of goes downhill from there, but it's a doozy. Lex (02:49): Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. Added caveat- we've said this before. We'll say it again. We'll probably say it almost every episode. We are not medical professionals in any sense of the word. I am an anthropologist. Jordan (02:59): I just got a theater degree, so I have no legs to stand on. Lex (03:02): Yeah, no, th- the zero legs in terms of ADHD history, other than the fact that we have ADHD and we both are really into researching historical things. And so when you combine those two things, you're like, what did people used to think of this? And I'll tell ya, it's not great. Jordan (03:17): It's not optimal. Lex (03:18): There- well, people have been saying that ADHD is a thing... contrary to popular belief, it was not a new disorder in- Jordan (03:25): -Like, the nineties... Lex (03:26): The eighties- Jordan (03:27): The eighties. Lex (03:28): I think is when it was officially coined as ADD. It is much older than that. There is evidence that we have in medical writings up to 250 years ago. And there's even some evidence that people like Hippocrates were categorizing sort of these different ways of thinking. Jordan (03:44): Right. Lex (03:44): We've always been like this. It's not a new thing. There's a lot of evidence that like, I guess that's the other thing too, right? We should, we should say that we're coming from a place where the two of us from the research that we've done and our own personal experiences with ADHD as they've shown us, ADHD is a physiological disorder. It is not anything to do with your morals or your, you know, lack of discipline or your upbringing- Jordan (04:08): -your willpower, your moxie- Lex (04:11): As far as science has any say in it, it has nothing to do with that. Does it sometimes result in behaviors that are linked to those sorts of moral assignments? Jordan (04:21): Judgments? Lex (04:21): Yes, it can. But generally the study of ADHD or, you know, what we know today as ADHD has commonly been done on young white boys. And so there's some interesting paths to be crossed there. Uh, I'm going to let Jordan take it away, but I just wanted to add that precursor that we are working on the assumption and knowledge that this is a physiological difference in our brains. And this is not some sort of laziness or yeah, no, it's- Jordan (04:48): We have a lot of history and a lot of investigation and a lot of understanding that we can stand on and have the lens to view through here in 2020, but back in 1775, which is one of the first written acknowledgments of symptoms, matching ADHD. They are in a textbook by the German author, Melchior Adam Weikard? Sorry for my German pronunciation, I'm sure my ancestors are rolling in their graves right now, but he studied some children and described a set of symptoms that look pretty similar to how we understand ADHD today. And Lex, you have some quotes from him and what he thought of folks like us, don't you? Lex (05:30): Yeah, uh, I have some, some quotes and also just some examples of what these quote unquote symptoms are and what they've been perceived as for a while now. So he characterized the disorder as "distractible by anything, even a person's own imagination, taking more effort to complete tasks, flighty, careless, work has many errors and generally disorganized." Jordan (05:52): Huh. Lex (05:52): Yeah. I mean, it's pretty, it's pretty on point. Jordan (05:55): Yeah, I feel seen... Jordan (05:55): He kinda got us. He did only hint at impulsivity, so this would be more related to what we know now to be inattentive type ADHD. But the thing that he attributed all of these problems to is- Jordan (06:08): Tell us! What did he, what was his theory? Lex (06:10): And I quote, "The fibers too soft or too agile and can also cause the fact that they lack the necessary strength for the constant attention." Jordan (06:19): What did he think would fix that? Lex (06:22): So here's the thing fibers, you're probably wondering, did these people just not eat their Wheaties? Like what is he saying? He blamed upbringing for the lack of ability of the quote unquote fibers. He was talking about moral fiber. Jordan (06:34): Not like food fiber. Lex (06:36): Yeah. So- Jordan (06:37): Not like they didn't eat enough Raisin Bran. Lex (06:39): Yes. And if he did believe it was a physiological issue, he said that the physiological problems were caused by a lack of moral fiber as a result of their upbringing. Jordan (06:48): That is a pretty cold take, Melchior Adam Wiekard. Try again later. Lex (06:54): Uh, his cures were interesting too. Jordan (06:55): Yeah? Lex (06:56): Do you wanna hear some of those? Jordan (06:57): I would love to! Lex (06:57): Do you want to know what we're supposed to be doing right now to cure our ADHD? Jordan (07:01): Is it making a podcast? Cause that's what we are doing. Lex (07:04): Sure. No, he recommends removing distractions, being left alone in a dark room. So, you know, okay. But this is not an ethical practice and is not recommended. So instead he also recommended rubbing, cold baths, steel powder, uh, something called Cinchona... Or CIN-kona, mineral waters, horseback riding and gymnastic exercises. Yup. Jordan (07:26): I mean, I could see like horseback riding and gymnastics as a, like, here's a way to get some of your energy out, but sorry, rubbing? Lex (07:35): Yeah. Jordan (07:36): Does he say what? Lex (07:38): No, it just says rubbing. Great. Jordan (07:41): That's- that is horrifyingly nonspecific. Lex (07:44): Yes. I will say the Wikipedia article about this man says the majority of these cures are rubbish. But removing distractions and exercising are currently used to temporarily lessen symptoms and increase productivity, which is true. Jordan (08:02): Sure. But just in case you were wondering, steel powder just existing is not going to cure your ADHD. Lex (08:08): I'm wondering if maybe you rub with the steel powder? Jordan (08:11): Rub what? Lex (08:13): I'm assuming it's like- Jordan (08:13): -like, your brain? Lex (08:14): I mean, I'm assuming when people say like rubbing in old-timey language, I think that's like a massage, right? Or like, not necessarily as like relaxing as a massage, but like actually physically rubbing your skin and your body to increase blood flow. Jordan (08:28): Okay. Okay. Lex (08:28): I'm assuming that's what that means. If he meant it in a weird way, then, you know, maybe, I mean. Jordan (08:34): There are weirder prescriptions but- Lex (08:36): I will say, I guess, given the time period that actually could be quite possible considering, you know, when you look at the history of things like hysteria, a lot of the treatments for people was, uh the doctors would just assault them. Jordan (08:48): Yep. For those of you listening or reading along at home, don't rub yourself there or anywhere else with steel powder. Lex (08:56): I thought you were going to say like, bar none, don't rub yourself. And I was like, I mean, you can do what you want. Jordan (09:01): Yes. I am the inventor of Graham Crackers. I encourage you to never think impure thoughts. That's it, that’s my PSA for the day. Lex (09:10): Was that? Was that Kellogg? Jordan (09:11): I believe so, it was Dr. Kellogg. Lex (09:12): Yeah. Dr. Kellogg was really against the, uh, masturbation aspect of life. So. Jordan (09:18): We can't though, like we said, we are not medical professionals, cannot say for the positive or the negative how that will affect your ADHD. So, uh, your mileage may vary on that one. Lex (09:27): Yeah, no, we can't tell you to do or not do any of these things. I would hope that you don't do a lot of them. Cause we are going to be telling you some weird things. Jordan (09:36): Oh, it gets, it continues to be weird. Lex (09:38): It does. Jordan (09:39): Next up in ADHD history we have- Lex (09:42): Ooo. Tell me more. So I'm just, I’m enthusiastic. Jordan (09:45): You should be because we have a very fun character who comes onto the scene named Fidgety Phil. Lex (09:51): Fidgety Phil! Jordan (09:52): Fidgety Phil was written by Heinrich Hoffin- Hoffman, Hoffman Lex (09:56): Hoffman? Jordan (09:57): Heinrich Hoffmann. Lex (09:58): Flamio Hoffman Jordan (10:01): In 1844. And there is a fun little poem. It's not little, it's actually kind of long. So I'm not going to read the entire thing to you, but the basic plot is that there is a Phil and he fidgets and he knocks his chair over and pulls dinner onto the floor. As we've all done- Lex (10:17): You know. Jordan (10:18): None of us are perfect. Lex (10:19): Classic symptom of ADHD. Jordan (10:21): Ruining dinner. Lex (10:21): Falling out of chairs and pulling tablecloths off of tables. Jordan (10:24): And his parents are very upset about it, which I would be too. If somebody ruined my dinner, it's called being hangry. And I am, most of the time. Lex (10:32): Oh, it was like, do we need to stop? Do we need to get you a snack? Jordan (10:35): We're going to take a quick snack break, be right back. Lex (10:38): BRB. Jordan (10:39): All right. Lex (10:39): We’re back. Jordan (10:40): Great snack break. He wrote this poem, of Fidgety Phil who is described with a lot of the things we now attribute to ADHD. And while he was not a doctor, we do see his continued influence in characters like Dennis the Menace and Calvin from classic Calvin and Hobbs being based on this character of Fidgety Phil and that sort of stereotype of ADHD of the young hyperactive boy. Back to some science and some medical professionals. We get to 1798. That's actually backwards. I don't know how time works, but- Lex (11:15): Time is a flat circle. Jordan (11:16): Time isn't real. I don't understand how it works. I don't know what day of the week it is, but I do know that in 1798, sir, Alexander Crichton, who was a Scottish physician, published a book called an inquiry into the nature and origin of mental derangement, comprehending a concise system from the physiology and pathology of the human mind and a history of the passions and their effects, which he wrote based on his observations of a medical tour of Europe. And in this book, he describes something that we in the modern day would probably recognize as ADHD. Lex (11:51): Wait hold on. K could you imagine? Just real quick, just close your eyes, take a little trip with me, right? Jordan (11:54): Paint me a picture. Lex (11:55): So I'm just trying to imagine a medical tour of Europe. Like that's the vacation that this dude picked. Jordan (12:01): Different strokes for different folks. Whatever butters your parsnips Mr. Crichton. Lex (12:05): He just really wanted to look at people who were behaving in ways that were not deemed correct by society. And that was his vacation. Jordan (12:13): Just wanted to g-, just relaxing on the beach, looking over at someone else and being like, oh, that's messed up. That's like a- Lex (12:21): I’m just imagining like, hey dude, I can't wait to see some of the pics from your vacay. And then he’s like, uh actually I can't put any of those on Facebook because they are all of children who were behaving kind of strangely, maybe erratically. And then people are like, oh, okay. Like, can you imagine, like I bet people at the time were like- Jordan (12:39): That’s like Olympic level people watching. Lex (12:42): That's one word for it. Jordan (12:43): It sure is. Lex (12:43): Anyways. Sor- Jordan (12:44): But he had a lot of words about some people who had some things going on with them. And he described the condition he observed a thusly. “The morbid alterations to which attention is subject may all be reduced under the two following heads. First, the incapacity of attending with a necessary degree of constancy to any one object and second, a total suspension of its effects on the brain.” And so he described this inattentiveness as we would call it now, this distractibility, as the incapacity of attending with a necessary degree of constancy to any one subject almost always arises from an unnatural or morbid sensibility of the nerves by which means this faculty is incessantly withdrawn from one impression to another. Sounds familiar. And maybe either born with a person or it may be the effect of accidental diseases. When born with a person, it becomes evident that at a very early period of life and has a very bad effect. That's a technical term there. Very bad. And as much as it renders him incapable of attending with constancy to anyone object of education, but it seldom is in so great a degree as to totally impede all instruction. And what is very fortunate, it generally diminishes with age. Lex (13:55): I'm going to be real with you Jordan and with our audience, I totally zoned out for most of that because it's, you started with big medical words. And then I heard very bad and I was like, huh. And then went back into the medical words. And I just, I felt my eyes glazing, and this is not on you obviously, but like dude, could you have made it any worse for people with ADHD to read about the ADHD symptoms you've written down. Jordan (14:21): Not accessible content. Lex (14:22): Not at all. Jordan (14:22): This was not for us by any means. I could try and do it in a really bad Scottish accent, if that would make it more interesting to listen to. Lex (14:30): No. Jordan (14:31): Great. Thank you for sparing me that.. Lex (14:32): Yeah. I think I would laugh for like a second. And then, as soon as you got the hang of it and got into the groove, the same thing would happen. Jordan (14:37): It’d be way worse. Lex (14:38): I would just be like, oh, I am zoning out, but mysteriously, I can hear bagpipes in the distance. Jordan (14:46): I'll edit those in over or under my description of that. We'll just have a little Danny boy serenading us in the background so we know he’s Scottish. Lex (14:54): Incredible. So these were the earliest? Jordan (14:57): That was one of the earliest descriptions of it. And that one is interesting because he does say it may be born with a person or it may be the effect of accidental diseases. So he's not attributing it to a personal failing of just like, you suck and you can't pay attention. That’s bad- Lex (15:13): A counterpoint. Jordan (15:14): Yes. Lex (15:15): Hippocrates, Hippocrates talked about ADHD. Jordan (15:16): I don’t think. Go ahead. Lex (15:18): Yeah. Jordan (15:18): What did he say about ADHD? Lex (15:19): What do you not think? Jordan (15:20): I was going to say yeah it is a bit hypocritical that he didn't write this to be accessible to ADHD people, but- Lex (15:26): I see, I see. But Hippocrates, considered the father of medicine, right? Jordan (15:29): Ah! That, okay. Lex (15:30): Yeah, that one. Jordan (15:29): Gotcha, Gotcha. The dude- Lex (15:32): I just want to add this little counterpoint and I will say most people who study ADHD now don’t recognize this as being the first mention of ADHD, but some people, myself included, think it’s kind of cool to attribute it to Hippocrates because you know, he had a lot to say about a lot of things and he was super not right about most of them. Jordan (15:51): He took a big old swing though and I respect that? Lex (15:54): Yeah. Big swing and a miss on that one. But this is a pretty interesting one. So, you know, he lived in ancient Greece. If you don’t who, who, if you don’t know who HIppocrates is, you know go check him out. He’s got albums on Spotify, just kidding. Jordan (16:07): And up on SoundCloud. Lex (16:08): Yeah, uh. Hippocrates, he lived in Greece, in ancient Greece from like 460 to 375 BC, BCE for those of you who want to get all technical historian on me. He was known to have made at least one reference to patients who could not keep their focus on anything for long and had exceptionally quick reactions to things. So like they were very easily stimulated to the point of distraction and the, the cause that Hippocrates attributed to this was an overbalance of fire over water and so he recommended a bland diet and that you only eat fish and no other meat, uh, and that you’d get lots of physical exercise, which, you know- Jordan (16:45): So it all comes back to gymnastics and Graham crackers. Lex (16:48): Yeah. He was just like, uh yeah, just eat paleo. And uh, you know- Jordan (16:52): I’m on the paleo diet. Lex (16:57): Yeah, Eat paleo and swim. Cause- Jordan (16:54): One of those things is okay advice. Lex (16:57): Well, I mean, some people do need to be on the paleo diet. Jordan (17:00): That's fair. Lex (17:00): But generally you don't, you don't need that. I mean, okay. We can't say that. Technically talk to a nutritionist. Jordan (17:06): Talk to a nutritionist, not a dead ancient Greek guy about your dietary habits. Lex (17:10): Yeah. But it is interesting. Cause it is kind of fun to be like, oh, we're more fire than water. Jordan (17:14): I would love to be a fire bender. That sounds amazing. Lex (17:16): Exactly. Jordan (17:17): Hell yeah. Lex (17:18): Mark two times that we've mentioned Avatar in this, in this episode already. Jordan (17:23): And showing no signs of slowing down. Lex (17:25): Nope. Jordan (17:25): You know, where our priorities lie. Lex (17:27): Anyways. So keep, keep telling me more. So I just- I just want to make that counterpoint, right? Cause those two sources, sir, Andrew and uh, mer, mer, meh, meh, Mike- Jordan (17:36): Mike. Lex (17:36): Mike. Jordan (17:36): German Mike. Lex (17:37): German Mike. Jordan (17:37): Sherman Mike. Lex (17:39): Melchoir. Jordan (17:39): Yes. Si- Lex (17:40): Yeah, Melchior. Jordan (17:40): Like the character from spring awakening if that helps any of you other awful theater people remember that. Lex (17:45): She did get a theater degree, please do not give her too much grief over that one, folks. Jordan (17:50): Don't give me too much credit for it either. Lex (17:52): So yeah. But Melchoir and uh, sir, Alexander or Andrew? Jordan (17:55): Alexander. Lex (17:56): Yeah so, they- I'm great with names. Jordan (17:59): That working memory that we both have in spades, right? Lex (18:01): Yes. Yes, but uh those two you know, they are considered to be sort of the earliest known mentions of ADHD type symptoms but I just wanted to add that little counterpoint that like Hippocrates was there too, you know? Cause he had a lot to say about everything and it included something that people think sounds like ADHD. Jordan (18:18): I love that. We've always been here. Moving on, a lot of people know about Sir George, still. He was a British pediatrician and he contributed to some of the early studies of ADHD. When he took a look at a group of children he was researching, he identified and these are his exact words for the symptoms that these children were displaying: “passionate-ness, spitefulness, jealousy, lawlessness, dishonesty, wanton mischievousness, shamelessness and modesty and viciousness.” Lex (18:52): I don't see what's so funny here. These are all symptoms that I clearly display. Jordan (18:57): I know, but wanton mischievousness? Lex (19:01): Yeah. Is it like wanton, like the sexy version of the word or is it like- Jordan (19:05): No, it's just stealing everyone else's dumplings. Lex (19:06): I was going to say, is it like the fanfic version of wanton? Where people just write wontons? Jordan (19:14): No, he did. He did spell it in the more Shakespearian context. Lex (19:17): I mean like wanton mischievousness. That makes sense. Jordan (19:20): It does. But he chooses such judgemental words. He chooses- Lex (19:25): Eh, that's objective. I mean, yeah. He sounds like a total dick. Like let's be real, but Jordan (19:30): Well here's the thing is he attributed all of these to what he calls an abnormal defect of moral control in children. So he was basically like, interesting, all of these children are- Lex (19:42): These children are evil sinners. Jordan (19:44): These children are just awful. Lex (19:46): And like have you met kids? Jordan (19:48): They're doing their best.. Lex (19:50): They are. They are tiny humans with very low brain cognition. So- Jordan (19:53): Very big feelings. Very small head. Lex (19:55): Yeah. Big heart. Head empty. I relate. Is what I’m trying to say here. Jordan (19:59): I was going to say, I am 25 years old and my heart is big and my head is empty. Lex (20:06): Yes. Jordan (20:06): So I guess he wasn't completely wrong. But again, we're going back to that. Just like you have ADHD because you're a bad person and you need to try harder, sort of take, which is, a very cold take indeed. Lex (20:20): Ice cold. Jordan (20:21): All right. All right. All right. We're the worst. So now that we have this sort of set of symptoms that we see often in children altogether, we start investigating it and we start going, why are these things related? Why are these things happening if it's not just because you suck as a person. Lex (20:40): Why are these kids evil? Jordan (20:42): Why are children evil? That's going to be a hell of a grant proposal to try and write. Lex (20:47): Oh boy. Jordan (20:48): But we have in 1922, Alfred F Treadgold, who is at this point, Britain's leading expert on mental impairnent, impairment, comes in with actually a pretty warm take and he suggests that behavior patterns are from physiology, likely a difference in the brain or in some cases, brain damage rather than character flaws or lack of discipline. And that's a step in the right direction. I'll take that over just being immoral any day. Lex (21:15): Yeah, yeah. Jordan (21:16): And you can be both for what it's worth. Lex (21:18): Yeah. Jordan (21:18): But only one of those things. Lex (21:19): I am proof. Jordan (21:21): Hey, both is good. Lex (21:22): Oh boy. Jordan (21:22): But all that to say then, based on that research in 1923, a man named Franklin Ebaugh is studying children with, I'm going to butcher this. Again, I'm not a medical professional so forgive me for the sounds that are about to come out of my mouth, but encep- encephalitis lethargica, I think. Lex (21:41): Encephalitis lethargica, obviously. Jordan (21:43): Duh. My- I'm just too immoral to be able to process that like a person with a normal brain apparently, but Franklin Ebaugh was studying children who had survived encephalitis le- God. Lex (21:57): You can do it. You can do it. Jordan (22:00): Franklin Ebaugh was studying children who survived a brain condition and found some evidence that ADHD can arise from a brain injury, so we have a little bit more support for it being a difference in the structure of your brain and the way that your brain works. Lex (22:16): Interesting take, that it must be damage. Like this kid just got kicked in the head with a steel toe boot and now they have ADHD. I can, uh, I can say that's not what happened to me. I have no evidence of that. Jordan (22:27): Yeah. I have not explicitly been kicked in the head, but I did run into a door frame very significantly as a child. So maybe that was it. Lex (22:35): I mean maybe, but like most kids are going to have some head trauma. Jordan (22:39): This is true. Lex (22:39): It's just not going to be like Ari Aster level head trauma. Jordan (22:43): It's just a rite of passage. Lex (22:45): It is though. Like kids falling is a part of learning. Jordan (22:47): Yeah. Lex (22:48): That's like a developmental stage. Jordan (22:50): It is. Lex (22:51): They fall a lot. And then they learn how to not fall. Jordan (22:53): And learn how gravity works. Lex (22:55): Life is hard when you're a kid, everyone thinks you're evil and stinky and sticky. Jordan (22:58): And then you fall down a lot, Lex (23:00): And you hit your head and then Ari Aster takes a giant mallet and cracks it open. Jordan (23:05): I thought that only happened to the old people. Lex (23:07): Yeah, that's true. It only happens to the old person. Jordan (23:08): So you've got a bit before Ari Aster’s coming for you, kids who are listening to this. Lex (23:11): Yeah. Precisely 72 years. Jordan (23:16): You've got a while. You don't have to worry about that for a bit. So in 1952, we get the very first edition of the DSM, which is the diagnostic and statisti-statisti- Wow. Lex (23:29): You're doing amazing sweaty. Jordan (23:31): Is the diagnostic and statistical manual. It is used by mental health professionals to diagnose disorders. It has what's considered the official description of things. That's what your insurance uses when you get diagnoses. It’s what doctors who get paid to do this sort of thing use. It's like the brain worms bible. Lex (23:51): Ooo, that's a take. Jordan (23:53): I'm proud of it. So in 1952, we get the first edition of the diagnostic and statistical manual, which is a big book of brain worms. Lex (24:03): Yeah. You just open it. There's no pages. Only worms, only worms. And essentially how you get your neurodivergence is someone will come around like the stork, right? A stork comes to your door with a book, opens it, the worms pour out, go in your ears, into your brain. And then you have the ADHD. Jordan (24:20): Well, what happens is you have to slam the book shut and then open it again and do some like divination on the worm guts to tell you what you got, because that's what the book does is it tells you how these mental disorders work and the classifications and the symptoms. And it's sort of the official document. Lex (24:36): That’s what the government's telling you to cover up the fact that they're just putting worms in our kid's ears. It's a conspiracy. Jordan (24:42): And the storks, not real either. Lex (24:45): Stork is actually an acronym for scary technicians owning- Jordan (24:50): R Lex (24:50): R Jordan (24:51): No Lex (24:52): Owning rancid kid stuff. Jordan (24:57): Yep. So the stork brings you the DSM. Lex (25:01): Yeah. Jordan (25:02): And while you're looking through it, it goes back to get its batteries changed. And in the DSM, you can find what is considered the official definition of a lot of mental disorders. That's what psychiatrists and psychologists and therapists use. It's what is usually used to actually be able to prescribe you medication, especially if that medication is controlled. It's the big reference book so that everybody knows what we're talking about when we say a certain disorder. That came out in 1952, the very first version and did not include anything like ADHD. Lex (25:35): But you know what it did have. Jordan (25:36): What did it have? Lex (25:37): A catch all term. Jordan (25:39): Oh boy, I'm sure that was effective and informative. What was it? Lex (25:43): Minimal brain dysfunction, which was suggesting that a child showing hyperactive behavior had brain damage, even if no physical signs of it appeared. Jordan (25:53): Great. So that is just a fancy word for brain worms. Lex (25:57): Yes. Jordan (25:58): Great. Lex (25:58): Yeah. So worth noting, because I'm sure some of you are wondering when did the meth come in? Uh, because amphetamines are currently used as a very, very common and popular and well-known- Jordan (26:08): And effective Lex (26:10): And very effective treatment for ADHD. So Benzedrine, uh, an amphetamine, was first approved by the US Food and Drug Administration, otherwise known as the FDA, in 1936 and then in 1937, Dr. Charles Bradley, not to be confused with Texas based late singer, songwriter, performer, Charles Bradley, RIP, you were such a cool person, but Dr. Charles Bradley, a psychiatrist at a home for children with emotional problems. He gave Benzedrine to some of his patients to treat really severe headaches and it did nothing, did s*** all for the headaches y'all, it- it just- Jordan (26:47): No go- Lex (26:48): It did not help with the headaches. However- Jordan (26:49): However- Lex (26:50): He realized all of the people, like all of the children who he gave this amphetamine to were behaving better and paying more attention to their schoolwork, uh, and they had higher academic performance. And about half of those children were actively subdued by the amphetamine, which is actually a pretty common reaction if you have hyperactive ADHD or combined type, if you have any sort of hyperactivity, generally, if you take amphetamines, it will make you sleepy at first. So like for me, I popped my first instant release Adderall pill and 20 minutes later I was passed out on my bed and not just racing around and doing stuff like, uh, I don't even, like- Jordan (27:32): Like a neuro-typical person who takes amphetamines. Lex (27:34): Yeah, yes, yeah. So I know that things like Ritalin and Benzedrine is not actually in use anymore, but things adjacent to it like Ritalin and Adderall are used commonly by college students, actually second, most used drug to marijuana- Jordan (27:46): Mary Jane. Lex (27:47): The good kush, uh, the idea of Adderall and Ritalin making someone really, really intensely hyper and weirdly focused and staying up all night, like how it's considered to be a study drug. That's not actually how it affects people with ADHD brains. It just gets us to a normal level of functioning. Jordan (28:04): And often calmer. Lex (28:06): Yes. Very interesting to think about that this dude was like, oh, here's some meth for your headache and it didn't do anything for the headache, but then he was like hold on, there's something here and then no one did anything about that study until the fifties and sixties. Anyways. Jordan (28:22): So after Ritalin is approved by the FDA in 1955, Herbert Freed and Charles Peifer, which is a last name I shouldn't laugh at because I'm an adult. They studied the use of Thorazine on what they call hyper kinetic emotionally disturbed children and then in 1963, C. Keith Connors comes out with a study on the effects of Ritalin, which I guess we had approved earlier just for fun, just for kicks. Lex (28:49): I mean, there was like cocaine in soda for a long time so I feel like we shouldn't be too surprised. Jordan (28:54): Yeah, no, but it wasn't until seven years later that they actually test it in what Dr. Connors calls emotionally disturbed children. Lex (29:04): And what year was that? Jordan (29:05): That was in 1963. Lex (29:07): Okay. Jordan (29:08): And then in 1967, The National Institute for Mental Health awards its first grants to study the group of symptoms we would recognize as ADHD and then the following year, the second edition of the DSM is published, that's 1968. Edit includes both an updated name for the catch-all of organic brain syndrome, which is out of date now, but I'm pretty sure you can still buy at whole foods and what they call Hyperkinetic Impulse Disorder. And that sounds like what would happen if I drank the soda with cocaine in it? Hyperkinetic Impulse Disorder makes me sound like an X-Men, like I can shoot metal out of my fingers or something. Lex (29:45): Absolutely. Jordan (29:46): I would so much rather have that than ADHD. Lex (29:48): Yeah. Jordan (29:49): That sounds way cooler. Lex (29:50): Yes. Jordan (29:51): We peaked in 1967 folks. Lex (29:52): Nope. 68. Jordan (29:53): 68. Thank you. 1970, we get into some of the quote unquote controversy that surrounds ADHD, especially in students because the Washington post published a story describing how they reported 5 to 10% of all school children in a sample in Omaha, Nebraska, well in actually all of Omaha, Nebraska, were receiving stimulants like Ritalin to control their behavior. What this article didn't really explain is that those statistics only referred to kids in special ed programs and it also implied that a lot of the parents of those kids were coerced into medicating them. So that's where a lot of the bigger backlash against giving kids meth. Lex (30:33): Yeah and I think worth noting too, right? Like this is the beginning of the seventies, the end of the sixties. So there was a lot of research being done on drugs in general. Jordan (29:41): Right. Lex (30:43): And so there was a bit of a mass- I don't want to say mass hysteria because I don't like that term- Jordan (29:47): Right. Lex (30:48): But I don't know what other word to use for the mass panic? Jordan (29:51): Sure. Lex (30:51): About drugs, about psychedelics, about stimulants, about depressants, about pretty much everything. Right? And so we see that swing that leads us to some other policies later on that have impacted us to this day. But yeah so I think that's interesting too, how it kind of seems to correlate with that moral assignment to people who use drugs as delinquent or other, or Jordan (31:15): Going back to that morally corrupt idea. Lex (31:18): And so it's like, oh, these parents are being forced to give their kids meth and these kids have to take meth? They must, oh, this is just all bad. It's all bad. Jordan (31:26): My pearls, I'm clutching them. You can see that because this is a podcast but they’re being clutched. Lex (31:31): Yes, I think it's interesting too, right? Like that- Jordan (31:33): The timing of that is- Lex (31:34): The timing of that is very in sync. Jordan (31:36): It is, it is, uh, it's not till 1980, we are still in the swing of this reaction to drugs, but we get the third DSM and that changes, unfortunately Hyperkinetic Impulse Disorder to the more commonly known Attention Deficit Disorder, which had two categories, with hyperactivity and without. You- so you can get hyper activity on the side, no salt, or you just have your own, your own ADHD, your own ADD. In 1987, we actually get the words, Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder Lex (32:09): Woo! Jordan (33:09): In the DSM- Lex (32:10): Yeah! Jordan (33:10): In that order. Lex (32:12): Yeah! Jordan (33:12): The thing is though, is that hyperactivity, impulsiveness and inattention all appear as symptoms under one ADHD and they are not classified as separate types of the disorder. We don't have the idea that most psychiatrists prescribe to now of hyperactive impulsive type or inattentive type or combined type ADHD until the year 2000 so we survived Y2K and we get a diagnosis. That's a win-win. And as we've mentioned before, there's still a lot of things that we don't know about ADHD. I'm sure in maybe even 5 years or 10 or 20 or 30 or however many we'll look back and be like, we've called kids Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. What the heck? But who knows how long- Lex (32:57): I mean, I don't think we call kids ADHD, but we said that kids had ADHD. I don't, if you're calling a kid ADHD, why? Jordan (33:06): Hey ADHD! I mean, I've got called worse things in school, but- Lex (33:08): I mean, well that implies that it's an insult but- I just have a quick clarification here right? So we talked about a little bit how the, in like the twenties and thirties scientists started seeing that it was a physiological problem. Right? And that was like officially stated in the sixties and seventies, like this is a physiological difference in how the brain works, right? Jordan (33:26): Yes. Lex (33:27): But then we definitely swung backward on that as a culture because today there are still plenty of people who believe that it is not a physiological difference in brain chemistry so I think that's interesting- Jordan (33:39): It is interesting. Lex (33:39): -to see that people have been studying and doing the research and putting in the work to show that it's a physiological difference in neural pathways and brain chemistry and there's still people today in the year 2020, who believe that it is a moral failing. Jordan (33:58): It's not. De facto. It is not. Lex (34:00): Okay again, we're not medical professionals, but we do know that much. It's not. Jordan (34:04): We do know that there are medical professionals who have the evidence to prove that it is not, we also have the brains in question so despite all of that, we are still making headway in ADHD research. There's a lot, we don't know as we've mentioned before, but there are some wonderful people who are dedicating their lives to this kind of research. Lex (34:23): The other fun thing though, is that there are a lot of people who have started researching how psychedelics and ADHD interact. Jordan (34:30): That's a, that sounds like a one-way ticket to the hyper fixation station. Lex (34:34): Yes it is so we might as well head on down there now. Jordan (34:37): Well, I have one thing for you first and that is- Lex (34:39): Oh. Jordan (34:40): Over the course of the illustrious history of ADHD- Lex (34:43): Yes. Jordan (34:44): We've accumulated a lot of names for this collection of symptoms, this specific way of your brain working and I just wanted to get your thoughts on them, like- Lex (34:54): Yeah, absolutely. Is this a game? Jordan (34:55): It is. And it is a game that you might already know it's called hot or not. Lex (34:59): Absolutely. I do know this game. I am so ready. We have played this game in reference to US presidents. Jordan (35:05): Barack Obama was the hottest. Lex (35:06): Rightfully so. Jordan (35:07): Rightfully so, but I would like to know whether you think these historical names for ADHD are fresh and sexy or no. Lex (35:15): Okay. Jordan (35:16): You ready? Lex (35:16): Yeah. Jordan (35:17): All right. Let's Lex (35:18): Hit me. Jordan (35:18): Starting from the top. Lex (35:19): All right. Jordan (35:19): Brain injured. Lex (35:20): I mean, it's not, it doesn't have a zing to it and it implies that. I mean, like, brain injured, it, okay. Eh, pass. Like not completely ugly, but maybe like a ew, Jordan (35:31): Like a four, like a three or a four. Lex (35:34): This is, this is fun. This is great. This is great uh, this is a great unproblematic game. I was about to refer to brain injured as the butterface of this list. Please don't use that term. Jordan (35:44): It's very cruel. Lex (35:45): It's very cruel. Definitely shows my age for sure. Jordan (35:48): But we’re not judging people. We're judging- Lex (35:51): We're judging. Jordan (35:51): -people's takes on our brains. Lex (35:53): That’s true. Jordan (35:53): So I feel like we're a little justified in that. Lex (35:54): Okay but- Jordan (35:56): -that's a not for brain injured? Lex (35:56): That’s a not. Jordan (35:57): Okay. We're going to get a little more specific here and go, brain damaged child. Lex (36:01): That's a definite no. Jordan (36:02): That’s a definite no. Lex (36:03): Like, is it a little spicy? Yes. But not in a fun way. Jordan (36:06): Okay. Hard not for brain damaged child. We have, I will say, not to, not to weight the scales here, but my personal favorite. Lex (36:13): Okay. Jordan (36:13): Hyperkinetic Impulse Disorder. Lex (36:15): Yes. We have heard how you want to shoot metal out of your fingertips, so valid. Jordan (36:19): Thank you. Lex (36:20): Definitely hot. You don't even need to sway me on that one for sure. Jordan (36:23): It is thirty, flirty and thriving. Moving on. We have Hyperexcitability Syndrome. Lex (36:28): That's, that's kind of fun. Jordan (36:30): Yeah. Lex (36:31): Syndrome makes it sound a little dark and mysterious- Jordan (36:33): Yeah. Lex (36:34): But like Hyperexcitability. That's kind of fun. Jordan (36:36): Not really painting a super wide swath, but a very colorful one. Lex (36:40): Yes. So I'm thinking like carnival, but it's haunted. Jordan (36:43): Ooh. Love a haunted carnival Lex (36:43): You know? Jordan (36:44): Love that for us. Lex (36:46): Right. So I would definitely put that in hot. Jordan (36:48): That one's hot. Lex (36:49): Yeah. Jordan (36:49): Wonderful. Next we have Clumsy Child Syndrome. Lex (36:53): I want to say not, but it very much applies to me as a child. So I don't want to say that I wasn't cool. You know, I was, I was pretty fresh and not sexy because children are not sexy that is disgusting, but I was definitely fresh and spicy. Jordan (37:08): Fresh and spicy. Okay. Lex (37:09): So I would, I would personally put that in hot, but I can see that, you know, generally in terms of referring to a child that's not me. I wouldn't do that. Jordan (37:16): Like honorarily hot? Lex (37:18): Yeah. Like hot because I can relate. Jordan (37:21): Hot in a spicy way. Not hot in a sexy way. Lex (37:23): Yeah. Jordan (37:23): Okay. Okay. So we're on, we're just on the Scoville scale now. Not the, like attractiveness. Lex (37:28): Yeah. Jordan (37:28): Noted. Okay. We're going to stay on the Scoville scale for this one because we mention child again. We've got Hyperactive Child Syndrome. Lex (37:37): Meh. Jordan (37:38): Meh. Not? Lex (37:38): Not. Jordan (37:39): Okay. Lex (37:39): It's not as fun as the others. Jordan (37:41): That's fair. This one I think is pretty spicy. We have Hyperkinetic Reaction of Childhood, which sounds a little bit like a late eighties band. Lex (37:52): Yeah. No, that's definitely a song by Fall Out Boy. Jordan (37:55): Oh, absolutely. All right. Next on the list we have Minimal Brain Dysfunction. Lex (37:59): All right. Jordan (38:00): Hot or not. Lex (38:01): Not. It's pretty boring. I don't know. It's not very fresh or sexy to me. Jordan (38:05): It's not. After that we have organic brain disease. Lex (38:08): I do like the idea that a brain disease can be something considered A) a disease and B) organic and I- Jordan (38:16): Is the disease that your brain is organic? Lex (38:18): Yeah. Like it's, it's definitely been, uh, grass fed. It's cruelty-free, no antibiotics. Jordan (38:24): Free range- Free range brain disease. Lex (38:27): Yeah. When you say free range brain disease, I do think that's hot, but organic brain disease probably a no from me.. Jordan (38:32): That’s a no from Lex. Last but certainly not least, Nervous Child. Lex (38:38): Yeah. Yeah. That’s a- Jordan (38:41): Maybe not hot- Lex (38:41): I hesitate to say hot, but it's definitely not- Jordan (38:43): -Relatable is what it is. Lex (38:44): So relatable. Yeah. I'm in. I'm in on that one. Jordan (38:48): All right. Nervous child for the win. Another good band name too. All right. Lex (38:52): Yeah, for sure. Jordan (38:53): All right. Lex (38:53): Oh man. Thank you so much for that little diversion game though. That was, that was fun for me. Jordan (38:58): I'm glad. Lex (38:59): Uh, yeah, that, that was a, that was a nice light family entertainment segment you just brought there. So, um, anyways. Jordan (39:07): You know me. I aim to please. Now to jump back really quickly what was it you were saying about hard drugs? Lex (39:12): Oh, right. Okay. My hyper fixation of the week. Is it okay if we jump into that time of the podcast? Jordan (39:17): Lay it on me. Lex (39:18): So funny you say that actually, because I just learned that psychedelics are not hard drugs. Jordan (39:23): No? Lex (39:24): No. They're in this classification called soft drugs. Jordan (39:27): Oh, smooth and silky drugs. Lex (39:29): Yeah like some velvety drugs. Jordan (39:31): Ooo love that. Lex (39:32): Smooth, satin drugs. Jordan (39:34): Tender plush drugs. Lex (39:35): Neo pets, plushy drugs. Jordan (39:37): Love that. That seems on brand for you. Lex (39:39): Harkens back to the last time. Jordan (39:41): All coming together. Lex (39:42): Neo pets, always on my mind. Jordan (39:44): What else is on your mind though? Lex (39:45): Yeah so- Jordan (39:46): Tell me more about these soft drugs? Lex (39:47): Yeah, uh I will tell you all about these fuzzy warm teddy bear drugs. So I have long had a fascination with the concept of tripping. Oh yeah. I guess some clarification. Psychedelics are a type of drug that includes things like LSD, uh mushrooms, DMT, the hallucinogenic drugs that you hear about. Psychedelic drugs that are used in religious or spiritual or mystical contexts. Like Peyote, Iowaska, San Pedro, Peruvian Torch, those sorts of natural chemicals found in the world are used in religious ceremonies a lot and there are other people who do use them recreationally, when they're used in more of a religious context they are not actually called psychedelics, they're called entheogenic, so that is a distinction I'd like to make here. Lex (40:35): When I say psychedelics, what I mean specifically is hallucinogenic psychedelics, which is a hallucinogenic class of psychoactive drug whose primary effect is to trigger non-ordinary states of consciousness and psychedelic experiences via serotonin to, a receptor agonism. So essentially it causes hallucinations. It's the drugs that cause altered states of consciousness. The classics are like Mescaline, LSD, DMT, and shrooms. Uh, I first heard about psychedelics pretty early on I think, I want to say probably fifth or sixth grade. Jordan (41:08): Right. Lex (41:09): When I switched over to public school, I wish I was kidding. That was a big change for me folks. I went from a very, very, very small Christian, private, very conservative, uh, establishment for my first couple of years of primary school. My class size - seven, there were seven of us. Jordan (41:27): Oh boy. Lex (41:28): So I went from that to public school in fifth grade and I learned so much. Jordan (41:33): About school and fifth grade things? Lex (41:36): About school and about some other stuff that I probably shouldn't say on this podcast. I know we're not technically family friendly, but- Jordan (41:44): We're not explicit. Lex (41:45): Yeah. Anyways, I did learn a lot. And one of the things that I learned about was drugs because- Jordan (41:51): To say no to them, right? Lex (41:53): Yes. Yeah. I did learn to say no to them from Dare, you know, that big old lion who gives you a t-shirt when you finish the little, you know, assembly, uh, very John Mulaney re J.J. Bittenbinder type of assemblies happened in this, uh, in the specific relation to drugs because the county that I grew up in, in rural Michigan for a while, I don't think the numbers are quite up there anymore, but for a while was one of the meth capitals of the country. Jordan (41:18): Oh. Lex (41:18): It was like in the top five, cities or counties. Jordan (41:19): Oh geez. Lex (41:21): Yeah. So they did take the drug education very seriously. And my peers did not take that education seriously at all and I didn't understand drugs. I just knew that people would say things like, yeah, they were totally tripping out and I was like, they fell? And then people were like, no, they were on drugs and I was like, drugs can make you fall? Like, you know, just really not making that connection and then I eventually, um, watched a YouTube video called Drinking Out of Cups. Jordan (42:47): I'm not familiar with this youtube video. Lex (42:50): Yeah, that’s fine Jordan (42:51): I had a more sheltered childhood than you did. Lex (42:54): That's fine. Jordan (42:54): I didn’t learn about drugs until high school. Lex (42:56): Wow. Yeah. We, we started learning about them pretty young. Uh, I was taught that they are bad for you and do bad things. And that people who do drugs are just bad and that is not the case. I'm not going to say whether drugs are bad or not, because that's not my place, you do what you want and what you feel safe doing and I will do what I want and what I feel safe doing, but I also don't think that people who do drugs are inherently bad. Cause that's, there's a lot of problems there. So- Jordan (43:21): That’s a very, very cold take. Lex (43:23): Yepp. Jordan (43:23): But please tell me more about Drinking Out of Cups, because I thought that I was familiar with that concept, but the way you're leading up to it, I'm wondering if I don't quite understand Drinking Out of Cups. Lex (43:32): Right so, yeah. There was this YouTube video that came out, I believe in 2006. So when I was in middle school, it's a video. You could still find it on YouTube, it's a video of a sort of claymation looking lizard- Jordan (43:46): Great. Lex (43:46): Who speaks in a Long Island accent and the story behind the video was that this guy was on acid and tripping and locked in a closet by his friends who then recorded him as he went through his trip. Now I believed that because that was the widely told story, like people still think that's what happened and I just recently learned, and by just recently, I mean, five minutes before we recorded this podcast today that it was none other than Dan Deacon, singer, songwriter, and pretty good musical artist that a lot of people like, it was literally just a track off of one of his earlier albums in like 2003 and some other artist who was known for doing interesting music videos asked if he could animate that video and then the weird story, I have no idea where it came from, but I just, I firmly believed that it was about a dude who had sat in a closet and tripped on acid and was voiced by a weird lizard. So here's the thing that's very believable because when you watch the video, it's just this lizard talking absolute nonsense in a Long Island accent. Jordan (44:51): Is the Long Island accent related to the acid, or was that just like- Lex (44:56): No Dan Deacon is from Long Island. Jordan (44:58): Okay. Okay. I had questions about that. Lex (45:01): Yeah. So Dan Deacon is from Long Island and he was apparently sitting in front of a silent TV, flipping through the channels and just talking out loud to the TV as if he was having a conversation with the TV, he claims that he was not on any sort of mind altering%
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